interviewing techniques Podcasting tech

Subjectivity, hugs and craft: Podcasting as extreme narrative journalism

Subjectivity, hugs and craft: Podcasting as extreme narrative journalism

“Incorrect Pores and skin” is a groundbreaking podcast from Australia, investigating the dying of a young Aboriginal lady and the disappearance of her lover

In The Armies of the Night time (1968), his “nonfiction novel” concerning the Vietnam Conflict, Norman Mailer enthusiastically rejected the position of absentee writer. “I had some dim intuitive feeling that what was flawed with all journalism is that the reporter needed to be objective and that was one of the nice lies of all time.”

Since then, celebrated authors such as the Australian Anna Funder have harnessed subjectivity to propel their writing to higher depths. Funder’s award-winning 2004 research of East Germany in the Cold Conflict interval, Stasiland, begins in the first individual:

I’m hungover and steer myself like a automotive via the crowds at Alexanderplatz station. A number of occasions I miscalculate my width, scraping right into a bin, and an advertising bollard. Tomorrow bruises will develop on my pores and skin like a picture from a unfavorable.

It might sound an unlikely opening for a e-book that may expose the merciless efficiencies of a surveillance state and the human tragedies at its middle – nevertheless it locations Anna, as narrator, clearly within the reader’s area of view and invites us to accompany her on a journey of discovery. It also makes Anna weak: that admission, “I am hungover,” immediately makes her flawed and human. Identical to us. From this attitude, she frames her interviewees: She makes us sit up and admire the immense bravery of 16-year-old Miriam, who virtually succeeds in scaling the Berlin Wall; she does not disguise her loathing of Karl-Eduard von Schnitzler, a well-liked broadcaster and outspoken Stasi supporter of the day.

The good literary journalists of the last 50 years traditionally employed the tools of fiction to put in writing true stories: the actual individuals they depict are developed as characters and interviews are quoted as conversations; deep research and analysis is conveyed as plot and reconstructed scenes; and the author employs recent, descriptive language to put the reader at numerous places. This style, additionally described as artistic non-fiction or narrative journalism, thrives immediately as long-form articles in retailers similar to Empire, Vainness Truthful, and the New Yorker. Exemplars embrace Katharine Boo, Ted Conover, Susan Orlean, William Finnegan and the late David Foster Wallace.

The (literal) power of voice

But when the audio medium is added to the arsenal of narrative journalism, its impression is massively amplified. Firstly, the authorial voice is literally heard, direct and unmediated, by way of the podcast host. This foments a robust bond. If the host is adept at writing within the vernacular fashion that audio prefers, as Sarah Koenig did in Serial, the host can come to look like a good friend. Koenig was typically described as being like a companion to listeners on the podcast’s quest to know what happened within the 1999 murder of schoolgirl Hae Min Lee. She lost a few of that closeness in Serial 2, because the core interviews with captured Marine Beau Bergdahl weren’t carried out by her. However she is back on type in Serial 3, with taut, muscular writing that places her firmly on set. Right here she is in the Cleveland courthouse elevator in Episode One:

Once I’m feeling optimistic I respect that an elevator automotive in a government building is among the few places left in our country where totally different kinds of individuals are pressured into proximity. I wish to assume that we will all stand so close to at least one another, with our smart heels, and Timberland boots, and American flag lapel pins, and faux eyelashes, and Axe cologne, and orthopedic inserts, and teardrop tattoos, and to-go coffees. And when the elevator doorways open up, spilling us out onto our flooring, the truth that no one is bloodied and even in tears, it’s a small, pleasing reminder that we’re all on this together.

While podcasting has quite a bit in widespread with Koenig’s previous habitat of radio, and particularly the contrived informality of her previous haunt, This American Life, a serious difference is its liberation from the tyranny of the printed clock. A podcast might be as long or as brief because it must be: There isn’t any imposed period constraint, on an episode or on a whole collection. Thus in Serial’s debut, Koenig and Julie Snyder, the chief producer, felt capable of dwell on ambiguities and contradictions, and chronicle the back-and-forth of the investigation because it unfolded, relatively than ship it as a neatly packaged product with a transparent narrative arc. This was one masterstroke that had the effect of involving listeners in a “stay” story, spawning sub-Reddit teams and fan golf equipment that speculated on the newest revelations. The other was virtually unintentional, as Snyder informed an viewers at the Sydney Opera Home in 2016: having Sarah be very a lot a character within the story:

Documenting to an extent her personal reporting and what she thought and what she didn’t assume a variety of occasions… She’d never actually gone quite that far earlier than and I feel at first she felt uncomfortable about it, but I really was stating to her that… this isn’t a trick, this isn’t some like pandering flashiness… This is what serves the story, you must do it for this story because that story was a narrative that basically lived within the particulars and the one means a listener understood the importance of the small print was for Sarah to inform us what she manufactured from them…

The effect was to draw the listener nearer, make them feel like a fellow-investigator. Koenig was also lauded for her transparency. “There have been occasions the place she waffles and says ‘I don’t know what to make of this, I don’t know if this is vital,’” Snyder recollects. Far from undermining her standing as a journalist, Koenig’s admissions of ignorance and confusion increased her credibility.

Podcast hosts get hugs

Serial had discovered the facility of the subjective voice that so animates works like Stasiland, however not just with the added influence of audio: It found the character of podcasting as a brand new media style. Anybody who has worked in radio knows about its capability to create intimacy and connection; Franklin D Roosevelt harnessed it again within the 1930s to ship “hearth chats” to the nation over the wi-fi. Snyder calls radio an “empathy machine.”

When the host is talking proper into the listener’s ears, the intimacy ratchets up much more.

However podcasting turns those qualities up to 11, for two reasons: Individuals often pay attention privately, typically by way of headphones; and it’s an opt-in medium. That sets up the right circumstances for intimacy: In contrast to the radio, where you’re preventing the listener’s random switch-on and skill to flick the dial, the podcast host can trust that the listener needs to hear them. This enables them to chill out and be genuine, which will increase their relatability. When the host is talking right into the listener’s ears, the intimacy ratchets up even more.

Manoush Zomorodi, who now hosts ZigZag at the indie podcast network Radiotopia, summed up the difference between being a radio presenter and a podcast host in one phrase: Hugs. When her present, Observe To Self, about human tales in the digital world, was broadcast on WYNC, a public radio station in New York, Zomorodi’s interaction with listeners was cordial however professional. But when the present took on a second life as a podcast, despite the fact that the content was precisely the same, the response was very totally different. Followers at public events would throw their arms round her. She advised a podcasting convention in Sydney in 2016 that she put it right down to podcasting’s straightforward, accessible supply mode: “I walk residence from the subway with them, I’m with them.” The shortage of gatekeepers additionally permits the podcast host to be extra uninhibited, which additional bonds listeners. “We’re buds,” Zomodrodi stated. “We’re buddies.”

Choreographing audio journalism: S-Town

The Peabody-winning podcast, S-City, marries conventions of literary journalism with the perfect points of crafted audio storytelling to immense impact. At its centre is a research of the mordant, self-destructive genius John B. McLemore, a 40-something fixer of antiquarian clocks who’s each shaped and shackled by his small Shit Town (S-City), truly Woodstock, Alabama. Literary journalists can only write about delicious particulars they unearth. But S-Town provides us the actual deal: We hear first-hand the magnificent rants about local weather change, chicanery and ignorance that McLemore delivers with rococo Southern musicality and a stand-up’s timing.

Pay attention right here to how producers Brian Reed and Julie Snyder craft one rant around an operatic aria, delivering a type of acoustic alchemy that each counterpoints and elevates John B’s vitriol.

We ain’t nothin’ however a nation of goddamn, chicken-shit, horse-shit, tattle-tale, pissy-assed, whiney, fats, flabby, out-of-shape, Fb-lookin’, rattling twerk-fest, peekin’ out the home windows and snoopin’ around, listenin’ on the cellphones and spyin’ in the peephole and peepin’ in the crack of the goddamn door, listenin’ in the fuckin’ Sheetrock: Mr Putin puh-lease, show some fuckin’ mercy, I mean drop the fuckin’ bomb, gained’t you?


Opera swells in the background to its climactic end, then he emits a heavy sigh, adopted by the unexpectedly delicate conclusion: I gotta have me some tea.

Reed is unapologetically subjective, sucking listeners in to his perspective.

So as to add opera to a landscape of trailer trash, tattoos and “titty-rings” might sound incongruous, however then as Miss Irene Hicks tells Reed in a Blanche DuBois voice when he inquires after her grandson, Tyler: I have my drugs and I’ve my [Andrea] Bocelli. Capping all of it is the affective energy of the human voice itself and the seductive cadences of small-town Alabama.

With S-City, producers Snyder and Reed succeeded spectacularly in what they set out to do: to make an audio non-fiction novel. Reed is unapologetically subjective, sucking listeners in to his perspective. In Episode 2, as an example, he takes us (it seems like we’re physically there with him) to a tattoo bar, the place we meet some fairly unsavory varieties. Reed confides in us that he is not glad on this firm.

BR: I fake to do numerous issues that make me feel very uncomfortable so as to maintain as low a profile as potential, akin to act like I’m not shocked or upset or scared when someone says this to me, a radio producer with a microphone, within the first jiffy that we’re speaking. At the danger of ruining any surprise, the assertion is racist and nonsensical, replete with a number of uses of a horrible phrase.

BUBBA: You understand, we had a tax-free labor. It didn’t have nothing to do with a bunch of niggers choosing cotton. And we labored our ass off, and we received—we earned the whole lot we obtained.

In later episodes, Reed conveys his ambiguous feelings a few outstanding character, Tyler, who has assaulted somebody who tried to steal an item of sentimental value from him. Tyler isn’t introduced as either good or evil, but as a nuanced, rounded human being. When (spoiler alert) Reed learns of McLemore’s violent demise, Reed data his own shocked reaction to the information. This meta-reportage amplifies the emotional complexities and Reed’s Koenig-like questioning of his personal course of, in his subsequent reporting about McLemore’s family, adds narrative pull.

Mistaken Skin: from the margins in Australia

Meanwhile, back in Australia, Richard Baker, star investigative journalist with the venerable Melbourne newspaper, The Age, needed to comply with up his acclaimed first foray into podcasting. The award-winning Phoebe’s Fall, hosted by him and Michael Bachelard, investigated the bizarre dying within the garbage chute of a luxurious condo block of a younger lady and the botched police investigation that followed. It proved successful with a younger female demographic and triggered modifications to how coronial inquiries have been carried out.

Greg Muller, Government Producer, Siobhan McHugh, Consulting Producer and Rachael Dexter, Producer, at a script modifying session for the “Flawed Pores and skin” podcast, Melbourne, four Might 2018.
Richard Baker

I co-produced Phoebe’s Fall, my position being to advise on script, structure and craft, and to assist the print journalist hosts transition to this new medium. I evangelized to them the strengths and weaknesses of audio storytelling: for example the essential significance, in a medium that solely exists in real time, of area and pace. In contrast to video, you possibly can’t freeze-frame audio.

Now Baker needed to use his new information to another, even more extremely charged investigation: into the demise of a younger lady and the disappearance of her boyfriend in a remote a part of Western Australia in 1994. The couple was Aboriginal and phrase was that that they had incurred the wrath of traditional elders, as a result of their relationship was “Incorrect Pores and skin:” They came from families forbidden to associate. Further, the younger lady had been promised as a toddler bride to a much older man. Apart from being concerning the collision of historic culture and trendy regulation, the story was about power, corruption and greed, involving mining royalties probably value billions. It unfolded in an remoted and sublimely lovely panorama and concerned voices of Aboriginal individuals not often heard in Australian media. It had emotion, intrigue and no clear end result — the right elements for a podcast, but not a simple one to make.

With newspapers from the New York Occasions (Caliphate, 1619) to the LA Occasions (Soiled John, Room 20 by way of LA Occasions Studios) looking for to harness podcasting as an outlet for narrative journalism, I sat down with Richard Baker to mirror on the training course of concerned for a standard print-first journalist shifting into audio. Fallacious Pores and skin, he admits, was going to be a difficult enterprise in any medium:

Incorrect Pores and skin is a narrative about individuals and places unfamiliar to most of our viewers. Whereas Phoebe’s Fall was straightforward to entry – we had properly educated and extremely handsome white individuals — Incorrect Pores and skin doesn’t have that instant straightforward attraction. But I feel it is a wealthy story that educates the audience. And that has been the most effective suggestions. So many people have stated they’ve discovered a lot they didn’t find out about Indigenous historical past and tradition via Mistaken Skin.

Mistaken Pores and skin, which I also co-produced, was a yr in the making. It dropped on-line as six episodes in July-August 2018, with an accompanying multimedia website. The manufacturing challenges have been many. A mainstream audience would have problem understanding the uniquely Aboriginal method of talking English (typically a 3rd or fourth language) on this distant group, but we felt it was very important that these so typically marginalized voices be actually heard. Thus we needed to develop a means of scripting across the voices, typically included in fragmented type. The Kimberley area of Western Australia is the dimensions of France however residence to solely 44,000 individuals. The physical distance from Melbourne (roughly four,000 miles) and vastness and inaccessibility of the region (at occasions minimize off by floods), meant we typically needed to depend on telephone interviews, executed with out tape synching and in areas of poor reception.

Cultural and political sensitivities have been excessive. Some Aboriginal individuals (colloquially self-described as blackfellas) assume non-Aboriginal individuals (whitefellas) ought to butt out of telling tales that concern Aboriginal individuals. Others consider that we stay in a shared Australia now, and that it’s finally to the widespread good that as many Australians as attainable perceive extra about Aboriginal historical past and tradition; at 60,000 years, it is thought-about the oldest steady culture on the planet. Our guideline was that Baker had been approached by Indigenous individuals to research the story and that there was a duty to take it on. We retained an Indigenous marketing consultant to alert us to any cultural transgressions. We tweaked episodes in response to their recommendations. (Such have been the delicacies, the advisor doesn’t wish to be named.)

Australian journalist Richard Baker, host of the “Incorrect Skin” podcast

The workforce was largely drawn from Phoebe’s Fall and followed an identical course of. Baker developed an initial script as a Google doc, then the workforce worked on enhancing concision, readability, and for me, particularly, construction and craft: the layer of sounds, comparable to music and pure atmosphere, and cautious placement of voice, to create highly effective synergies. On Phoebe’s Fall, it had been a problem to teach even very savvy journalists on their first foray into using sound, not text. I’d pay attention critically in real time to a draft episode and mark it up with what to them was double Dutch: “Let it breathe” was my constant mantra, which means that the interview content needed “area” around it, an ambient or musical pause that allowed listeners to soak up what that they had heard. This idea of timing as an important component in shaping the influence of the content material seemed absurd to them at first. As Baker informed co-producer Julie Posetti, “Area to me is a factor you hit on the keyboard.”

However by our second enterprise, he was starting do as I implored: “Assume by way of your ears.” By this I meant first getting the fundamentals proper, comparable to recording interviews with a intently positioned microphone and an absence of interfering background noise, similar to visitors, café chatter or worst of all, the polluting rumble of wind. However I additionally alerted him to the myriad prospects of sound itself: A distinctive fowl name, the drumming of loud rain, the tinny cacophony of cicadas, the shouts and cheers at a sporting event — all can summon a world within the listener’s creativeness.

It paid off. In Improper Pores and skin, the river becomes a bodily presence: The loud splash as Wayne, our information, seeks refuge within the water conveys the palpable warmth, as does the panting of his canine. Studying to “assume sound” was a serious transformation for Baker. When he visited the grave of Julie Buck, the younger Aboriginal lady whose body is found after she has run away together with her forbidden lover, he was acutely acutely aware of the surroundings:

I made positive to get the crinkle of my footsteps approaching and the sound of the wind and massive solitude of her resting place before I even thought-about what I might say stay into the recorder. There’s no method I might’ve thought of this on Phoebe’s Fall.


Baker’s scripting, too, slipped extra simply into the idiom of audio. There were still occasional formalities to rectify and long, concerned sentences to be lowered. He discovered to explain the place he was on the tape on the time and to color in descriptions of whom he was talking to:

If you meet Joe for the primary time, you quickly study he loves amusing and is extremely fit for a person who’s simply turned 70. He wears an enormous cowboy hat, like plenty of males in these elements, and his long-sleeved blue shirt covers a barrel chest. His solely concession to age is a haze throughout his huge brown eyes.


Maybe the most important shift got here when Baker — virtually unconsciously — started together with his personal responses to what he was investigating.

On the matter of promised brides, I’m torn between considering who am I to question cultural practices which were happening in the Kimberley for hundreds of years and wondering how any woman — my own 10-year-old daughter comes to thoughts — would feel about being promised out to a man two or 3 times her age?

Subjectivity isn’t just potential in podcasting – it is virtually essential. Baker acknowledges that writing within the first individual was previously anathema to him. “This goes back to formative coaching as a print journalist, where it was frowned upon for young journalists to have the temerity to consider anybody can be considering what they assume. Details, details, information was the mantra and for probably the most part, it’s good recommendation.” However storytelling by way of the affective energy of audio could be very totally different. This from Baker:

For the listener, you’re a principal character whether or not you assume you’re or not. They need to know what you assume or really feel about essential parts of the story. I feel for those who as a number are unable to point out that you simply are also affected by the actual life drama then you definitely danger alienating your viewers and showing inhuman.

We will feel Baker’s ceaseless curiosity, his want to know a totally totally different world view. We’re caught up in his quest, as he sets about asking uncomfortable questions and teasing out the distinction between what’s ‘cultural’ and what is right.

Whereas in-depth interviewing is a vital part of most function journalism, in storytelling podcasts it becomes the crucial narrative backbone. It’s very important not only to seek out the important thing people who can make clear the story (the “talent”), but in addition to “safe” them — to construct a robust relationship, that may evolve along with the story. Baker found he had to adapt his investigative strategy to local geographical and cultural elements:

It is a reality of life within the Kimberley, notably as an outsider, that in the event you can’t chill out and just flow, you’re solely going to end up annoyed, exhausted and appearing in a approach that most people gained’t need to speak to you, let alone trust you. In order that’s what I did. I simply let issues occur and rapidly after a gathering with one individual I’d end up being launched to increasingly individuals.

Baker’s working course of also modified, from his earlier document-oriented focus to an emphasis on individuals and voice. This made the writing part less predictable: it needed to be fluid:

You’ll be able to’t afford to get concreted into a single-focus view of issues. With print investigations which might be document-based, you already know the material you must play with and its alternatives and limitations from the get-go.

All these parts helped to make Fallacious Skin sound distinctive, a podcast whose a number of Indigenous perspectives opened up a really totally different Australia to the world. One man, an Indigenous lawyer criticized within the podcast for exploiting native title issues for considerable monetary achieve, accused Baker of racism — one thing Baker considers “a badge of honor” that confirms that he exposed wrongdoing, as this was all of the lawyer might find to criticize. The overwhelming response from Aboriginal Australians and elsewhere has strongly affirmed the podcast:

The suggestions I’ve acquired from Indigenous individuals within the Kimberley and further abroad has been overwhelmingly constructive. The women are pleased that anyone has cared sufficient to stick up for them and various males have complimented me on having “the balls” to stand up to some pretty violent individuals.

Flawed Pores and skin is a narrative that gained’t let you depart it behind. So in a method I knew going into this that I’ve made myself a participant in a much bigger battle. Actually I had a person from the Western Desert in Western Australia ring me after the podcast to say that he and his other senior men have been there to go to bat for me culturally and spiritually as they believed I’d come beneath assault in those senses from darkish forces within the Kimberley. In order unnerving as that was to be informed that, it was also reassuring. As the man stated to me, “You’re in our world now.”


With Phoebe’s Fall, Baker largely stored his emotions topic to his analytical voice. In Incorrect Skin, his investigation expertise are simply as much in evidence within the materials he uncovers, however typically his narration comes straight from the guts. It is powerful as a result of, far from in search of to get us onside, he’s striving to rein himself in:

Personally, I don’t heat to podcast hosts whose egos demand they always be injected into the story. I nonetheless consider within the “much less is extra” rule. I consider using subjective writing and scripting can have immense power and impression if used with discretion and care.


The end result has been gratifying at many levels. The podcast scooped Australian Podcast of the Yr and Greatest Investigative Podcast at the Australian Podcasting Awards in Might and gained gold in June 2019 on the New York Radio Pageant, beating works from over 30 nations. But Baker is most pleased to have enthralled listeners about life and lore in this historic a part of Australia and informed and educated individuals concerning the Indigenous group: “To try this as well as entertain and push the police inquiry additional than it ever expected to go has been a serious achievement.” A sports enthusiast, Baker sums up what podcasting can do and the immense work it takes as “excessive function writing.”

The workforce, this author included, is deep at work on a new podcast, The Last Voyage of the Pong Su, a geopolitical thriller involving medicine, crime syndicates and a very totally different conflict of cultures. Just released, it offers unparalleled insights into the workings of international police operations and toggles between two unlikely venues: a small town on Victoria’s shipwreck coast and a rustbucket cargo ship from North Korea. It introduces us to some unforgettable characters, together with craft beer-averse, yuppie-hating fisherman and motormouth Dicky Davies, who provides the primary episode its pithy title: This Fucking Boat. John B McLemore would little question approve.

Host Richard Baker, co-producer Rachael Dexter (proper) and Siobhan McHugh at a story conference this past July, displaying the episode structure for his or her new podcast, “The Last Voyage of the Pong Su.”









Most popular articles from Nieman Storyboard